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Illuminatus

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PostSubject: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:53 am

I HAS TEH SUPAR MAGIX
WIZARD ROBE

Finally, dear Jesus. So, anyone interested in meriting (probably on BRD, I realize... emo HFYB )

Only 352 merits to go! ^_^_^_^_^_^_^
At 20k/h, that's only 126 hours!! What a bargain!


(somewhat related: what are you meriting, Iono? I think I'm gonna max out helix attk/acc, maximum sublimation, stormsurge, and enlightenment)
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Brogan



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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:40 am

MERIT PLEASE
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Iono

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:30 pm

Don't get Max sublimation unless you really want to. All it does is increase the amount you can store aka: you can sublimate longer to get a higher cap so instead of just add 10mp (per merit) to the total you sublimate it just lets your sublimate longer for a bigger total which if you don't really mind you can do but I put 1 point in and am taking it out because it's not worth it to me to merit into something to make it last longer.
edit: Then again you'll ALWAYS sublimate (or you better be!) unless you're getting refresh or using a drink. So i mean idk to put it shortly the points put into sublimation don't really do anything imo. The thing is that other then helix and enlightenment SCH merits all really just don't do anything important.

My suggestion: Put 1 point into Enlightenment first. The JA is nice, not essential but it's nice to have even at a 10 minute timer. After that i'd put all your points into Helix merits and cap that off. After that, if you're feeling like it, you can either put a point into Stormsurge (the first point is worth it more or less but i've come to realize that no one really cares about the added stats) Or you could finish enlightenment like i'm doing. I think nocking enlightenment down by half to 5 minutes > 3 or 4 added stats to storms you'll forget to throw up half the time.
Other then that i say look over the merits and decide where you want to go from there. i'm still in the process of deciding myself. I'm thinking i might do grimoir recast just because I might as well. lol


Last edited by Iono on Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Callisto

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:33 pm

What are the actual merit options for SCH?

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Iono

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:38 pm

also: CONGRATS! haha finally gald to have some SCH brothren other then Phobic.
Speaking of you can ask him for what he thinks also but i mean me and him have been soloing and duoing everything together so we figured them all out together so he'll probably say the same thing (maybe not about enlightenment though)
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Scritch



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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:08 pm

Callisto wrote:
What are the actual merit options for SCH?

Group I
* Grimoire Recast (-2 seconds Light Arts/Dark Arts recast per upgrade)
* Modus Veritas Duration (+10% per upgrade)
* Helix Magic Acc./Atk. (+3 magic accuracy and +2 magic attack bonus per upgrade)
* Max Sublimation (+10 MP available per upgrade)

Group II
* Altruism (Light Arts Stratagem (requires two charges). Increases the accuracy of your next white magic spell.)

* Focalization (Dark Arts Stratagem (requires two charges). Increases the accuracy of your next black magic spell.)

* Tranquility (Light Arts Stratagem (requires two charges). Your next white magic spell will generate less enmity.)

* Equanimity (Dark Arts Stratagem (requires two charges). Your next black magic spell will generate less enmity.)

* Enlightenment (Optimizes both white and black magic capabilities and allows access to both addenda for your next spell. Recast: 10min.)

* Stormsurge (Storm-type spells grant a bonus to attributes associated with their element. Initial bonus value: +3.)


Most SCH's I know have said that Helix/Modus Veritas are the best choices for Group I, but I'm not a SCH so idk. And the merit strategems aren't useful because they take two charges. Which basically means you can either merit them for the sole purpose of using them during Tabula Rasa, or max Stormsurge/Enlightenment.
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Illuminatus

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:09 pm

He actually said 5/5 helix, 5/5 modus veritas. I dunno about that, honestly... I mean, it's sort of like Divine Seal, I'm a bad WHM and only use it when shit hits the fan, so it's not super useful for me to merit it.

Helix is a definite. Here's pros/cons for the others...
Grimoire Recast: Not terrible, but honestly I'm usually in one arts or the other, and Enlightenment to 5 minutes should destroy any reason I actually would have to switch arts fast. i.e. urdoinitwrong if you're constantly riding your grimoire timers.

Modus Veritas: Awesome in theory... with full merits, you should double the damage done while not touching the duration. That said, again, is it really that useful? On things like HNMs, whose INT is ZOMGWTF, it won't matter, and on any merit mob, it'll die before all the ticks are done anyway.

Max Sublimation: Better for a taru than other races, since it adds a static amount of MP, not a percentage. Plus, always used, as you said. Useless if you have a RDM, but in Dynamis for instance I'm never put with a RDM if I have /SCH. And I'm hoping /angry is the same... spread the RDM wealth to people who need it. I'm not sure how my sublimation would compare to Refresh, but if I got relic body, this would be that much sweeter.
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Scritch



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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:14 pm

Focalization/Altruism shoulda really been the same merit. Same with Equanimity and Tranquility.
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Illuminatus

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:19 pm

Scritch wrote:
Focalization/Altruism shoulda really been the same merit. Same with Equanimity and Tranquility.
Believe you me, if those weren't 2 charges, I'd definitely merit the black mage accuracy one.
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Kartis



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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:23 pm

Brogan wrote:
MERIT PLEASE
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Iono

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:52 pm

Modus Veritas does not increase the duration to full length from what i've heard.
Apparently the 10% per is 10% of the 50% reduction aka with full merits it's supposed to reduce the duration 25% instead of 50%. That's some kinda bullshit to me BUT it's the only other merit that really has any weight to it. This information could be wrong but as i haven't merited it i can't tell you for sure and this is just what i've heard/seen.

Sublimation is actually 25% of your max HP (before HP- effects and the like) so it doesn't really help taru's more because you know we gots no hpz. But i guess out of all the races you're right that taru kinda does get the best end out of it.

Grimoir Recast: you're very right about it but i mean if i'm goign to throw points around for no real reason i figure it doesn't hurt to be able to throw arts around like a dog's playtoy if i ever felt the need. There's very very few times but times none the less where i've had to toss arts around. Enlightenment is a god-send for the idea of not having to do it (although you can't use the startagems from the other art with enlightenment) and even merited 5 minutes isn' exactly the best safety net.

In all honesty he told ya right. Helix/Enlightenment/Stormsurge/Modus (in that order i'd say except for putting the first points into enlightenment i'd say and maybe one into Stormsurge if you want to)
All the other merits don't really DO anything.

Scritch wrote:
Focalization/Altruism shoulda really been the same merit. Same with Equanimity and Tranquility.
I KNOW RIGHT?! I mean WTF first off i have to choose one, and then they're 2 charges? WTF I'd say they should of made it where if you maxed the merits on it the 5th merit also makes it 1 charge. THEN that'd be awesome. but seriously. they should of put them together especially because all the normal strats you get at the same time at the certain level.
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Callisto

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:00 pm

Grimoire Recast actually sounds kind of nice, but for /SCH more than SCH lol. Too bad it doesn't apply to SCH<75. Still compared to the other group 1 options, aside from the Helix no-brainer I probably would go with max sublimation. 50 MP is 50 MP, and once your pool is full it doesn't really matter how long it took to fill. Especially when mixed with AF Hat/Relic Body that seems like the way to go to me.

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Iono

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:19 pm

Yeah it's 50 mp. Thing is with modus capped and if you went around with phobic with his modus capped you'd do one hell of a helix when you combine your modus'. A 4 time powerful helix for half the length is insane. on a pudding you'd bust 4k dmg easily in like. 30 seconds. Which leads me to guess exactly why they didn't make full merits of modus simply double the damage of a helix because if that were the case SCH's would become the new SMN. Pop a helix, double the damage 6 times for the full duration every 10 minutes that's just stupid broken. (an accurate helix not on a magic-weak mob is maybe 150 dmg. {First modus}150x2=300 300x2=600 600x2=1200 1200x2=2400 2400x2=4800 damage.... per tick.... for a total of 7 ticks......


33600 damage from 1 spell that wasn't even the best it could be.

ANYWAYS
Sublimation isn't as good as refresh because of the recast timer and most of the time the set duration of Sublimation lasts long enough for anything you need anyways. thinking about it though a longer sublimation is kind of nice because it acts as a poison potion for preventing sleeps so.
Yeah It'd be nice if art recast would stick to /sch.
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Callisto

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:33 pm

I think Sublimation is better for Refresh in terms of party dynamis despite not being flat out better for MP restoral. If you use it consistently you're only going to miss out on 30~ MP per cycle from the recast timer, and it saves the RDM 160 MP every 10 minutes. Unless you're in a situation where you seriously need more incoming MP than what Sublimation/Aspir can handle, in which case either the group is asking too much of the SCH to begin with, or you're probably fighting a losing battle.

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Illuminatus

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:37 pm

Callisto wrote:
I think Sublimation is better for Refresh in terms of party dynamis despite not being flat out better for MP restoral. If you use it consistently you're only going to miss out on 30~ MP per cycle from the recast timer, and it saves the RDM 160 MP every 10 minutes. Unless you're in a situation where you seriously need more incoming MP than what Sublimation/Aspir can handle, in which case either the group is asking too much of the SCH to begin with, or you're probably fighting a losing battle.

It's also good in the fact that it's a lump sum of MP-- if you're in an oh-shit situation, Refresh pales in comparison to a charged sublimation :D Adding relic body to the mix will just make charging go even faster, so it sounds what I'll probably do.


Phobic loves his modus veritas, but meh, I'm not to thrilled with it.
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Iono

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:58 pm

Phobic likes to see the HP drop by 20% from one tic of a DoT.
Also yeah it is awesome that you grab it all back at once. I can recall very many a time when i'm down to like 60 MP and need to do something big and just use my charge. Parismony helps too lol.

Modus is good. And if you think of it in a group mentality it gets better but with anything more then maybe 3 sch's it's not that good. I mean the Increased duration will allow more tics for the double (quadruople'd or 8 times with 3 sch's) damage. But alone it's not that great really. it'll let you get 1 more tic in though. i mean with 3 people going at once it'd drop the timer to 25.3125 seconds i'd guess (assuming that helices stick for 60 seconds) I mean tack on the first burst and then the tics thereafter you'd get 3 tics rather then If none of them have it merited it'd be 7.5 seconds and you'd only get 1 tic(plus the initial hit). So you're doing double the damage assuming your helix lands well and going back to maybe a 150 helix on a normal mob non-magic weak you'd bust each tic for 600 damage and do a total of 1950 damage instead of an unmerited 750 damage. Alone you're going to save another 15 seconds which actually equals to 2 more tics then unmerited (because 60/2= 30 and that means the 33 tick won't trigger) so it'll do more. sticking to the 150 damage deal you'd pull out 1650 damage instead of the unmerited 750 damage.

So i mean it's good. Just it's only every 10 minutes. And your helix has to land well.
(for reference sake a normal 150 helix that wasn't modus'd would total to 1050)
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Illuminatus

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:37 pm

Hm, fair enough, but I'm just thinking situations that Sublimation is useful versus MV.

MV:
good: NMs with low enough INT to land a good helix on, ZNMs
bad: HNMs, merit parties (non-manaburn)

Sublimation:
good: Any time you don't have a RDM
bad: takes longer to tick up, but basically nullified with relic body
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Iono

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:05 pm

Illuminatus wrote:
bad: HNMs, merit parties (non-manaburn)
Enlightenment

Illuminatus wrote:
bad: takes longer to tick up, but basically nullified with relic body
(below i'm basing everything off you sublimating 210 mp just as a basis i think i Sublimate for more.)
You have a point with relic body. Question is are you really going to replace all body pieces for the Relic body? The more i think about it the more I think yes but Idk for sure. The extra tick would drop the timer on sublimation too. now i have to count out how much faster.. 195 seconds instead of 260 seconds without the body piece so basically MAx sublimation WITH the body is going to tack on 50 MP to your normal Sublimation charge. Without the head piece your Increased charge is going to take the 260 seconds (4.3 minutes) so you'll only really get 2 charges in the 10 minutes so in Dark arts you're only goign to get 100 MP over the useful JA. I mean if you think about it the normal sublimation 210 mp with the relic body would take 157.5 seconds (2.625 minutes) to charge. tack on the 30 second recast you probably won't get out more then 2 charges in 10 minutes. you'll start the 3rd but it won't finish before 10 minutes. BUT you're right. the fact is that Sublimation is a guarantee of more MP. and helix isn't exactly the best to always get to stick reliably BUT With merits MV will. guarantee you do more damage on your helix no matter how good it is. So sometimes the benefit from MV will be huge when the helix is big but none the less you enlightenment a Helix while healing and it sucks, you could MV it and make it not suck as much.

Idk you do what you will the point is that Unless you Merit MV. you're guarantee'd to do less damage then your normal helix would. So basically you either take 100-150 MP every 10 minutes, or you take a Useful JA instead of having a JA you'll never really use unless you're tryign to kill soemthing as quick as possible.

You need to get your gear setup and find out how much you sublimate but i'm going to guess it's something like 218 ish seeing as you're Taru and there isn't really any gear you'll have that i won't that'll give you more HP then me so.
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Illuminatus

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:51 pm

Iono wrote:
Illuminatus wrote:
bad: HNMs, merit parties (non-manaburn)
Enlightenment

Illuminatus wrote:
bad: takes longer to tick up, but basically nullified with relic body
(below i'm basing everything off you sublimating 210 mp just as a basis i think i Sublimate for more.)
You have a point with relic body. Question is are you really going to replace all body pieces for the Relic body? The more i think about it the more I think yes but Idk for sure. The extra tick would drop the timer on sublimation too. now i have to count out how much faster.. 195 seconds instead of 260 seconds without the body piece so basically MAx sublimation WITH the body is going to tack on 50 MP to your normal Sublimation charge. Without the head piece your Increased charge is going to take the 260 seconds (4.3 minutes) so you'll only really get 2 charges in the 10 minutes so in Dark arts you're only goign to get 100 MP over the useful JA. I mean if you think about it the normal sublimation 210 mp with the relic body would take 157.5 seconds (2.625 minutes) to charge. tack on the 30 second recast you probably won't get out more then 2 charges in 10 minutes. you'll start the 3rd but it won't finish before 10 minutes. BUT you're right. the fact is that Sublimation is a guarantee of more MP. and helix isn't exactly the best to always get to stick reliably BUT With merits MV will. guarantee you do more damage on your helix no matter how good it is. So sometimes the benefit from MV will be huge when the helix is big but none the less you enlightenment a Helix while healing and it sucks, you could MV it and make it not suck as much.

Idk you do what you will the point is that Unless you Merit MV. you're guarantee'd to do less damage then your normal helix would. So basically you either take 100-150 MP every 10 minutes, or you take a Useful JA instead of having a JA you'll never really use unless you're tryign to kill soemthing as quick as possible.

You need to get your gear setup and find out how much you sublimate but i'm going to guess it's something like 218 ish seeing as you're Taru and there isn't really any gear you'll have that i won't that'll give you more HP then me so.

I'm gonna run the numbers, but I have a question:
Should I be idling in my max HP gear? i.e. gigant mantle, bloodbead ring, etc
wiki wrote:
The MP limit is 25% of your max HP (before applying "Converts HP -> MP gear"). The MP limit is calculated throughout the duration of the "charging" time. This means you CAN NOT equip HP+ gear for the activation, then switch back to normal gear for the charging time.

So should I be idling in HP gear, switch out all the good stuff for spells, and return to the HP gear afterward to keep my average higher?
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Iono

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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:19 am

You're tryign to be entirely way. too. efficient. My advice, don't bother with Max HP+ and just ride it for what it is. I'm not saying you can't. If you do it, that's you. it's just to idle in HP gear seems like your going to be putting spellcast to some use. you'd basically have to always switch back it after casting. Maybe set your swap during midcast and then aftercast your HP gear. Idk. you can, just it not like you -really- need it. First of all any and all HP+ you add you'll only add 1/4th of what it is to your mp charge and while you're casting it's not goign to be risky to keep it going without it messing up really unless you have some serious HP+ gear. Could you do it? yeah, Would I do it? nah. Even if you were to get like +100 hp in all this gear you'd only get 25 mp and it's not really worth it imo.
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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:57 am

well the main reason I was arguing for max sublimation merits is because I already put one in it

andddd yeah, I didn't wanna waste it, though I'm glad I didn't put 10 or something it i :p

when I was duoing sharks/aerns with Rin in sea (I outdamaged him even without weather up, btw), max sublimation came in super amounts of helpful. Sublimating for 225 instead of 215 was cool to see, but really imagining seeing 265 instead of 215 is incredible. I already had tons of MP, so much so that I basically solo'd a Reraise'd Aern with sublimation. And of course in that siatuion I can't use MV.

I just think MV is for epeen, like "omg look what I can do" and not really useful 90% of the time like Sublimation is. Maybe I'm wrong, though
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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:40 am

I think we're just repeating ourselves now. It's your merits, do what you will personally either way they should be your last merits if you take my advise so you've got time to think it over. Not saying it's horrible just saying the MV make a useless JA useful, and it's not all that much about the epeen it's an efficiency thing as well as a way to make a potent spell out of helix. nearly 2k damage for 78 mp is nice.
There is no template for SCH =P just what people do.
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PostSubject: Re: DING SCH75   Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:55 am

Meritpo <Can I have it?>
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